Friday, October 27, 2006

Women are meat, says cleric


I contend that at the heart of many religions, particularly fundamentalism, there is a contempt for human beings. From the Calvinists with their belief in human total depravity to the Muslims. Perhaps I should not use the “from.... to” saying there as the Muslim fanatics and the Calvinists fanatics are a very similar bunch.

A Muslim cleric in Australia
has unleased an outrage by blaming women, especially western women I think, if they get raped. If you think he is just a male chauvinist he was pretty contemptable about men as well.

In a sermon he preached “If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden, or in the park, or in the backyard without cover, and the cats come and eat it... whose fault is it, the cats’s or the uncovered meats?” The cleric, Sheik Taj Aldin al Hilali made it quite clear: “The uncovered meat is the problem.” He says that if womam “was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred.”

So not only did he compare women to hunks of dead meat tempting cats he compared men to animals who act on instinct and who can’t be said to possess moral abilities.

He is saying that woman who gets raped got raped because she deserved it. She was the uncovered meat tempting the helpless men who have no moral ability to choose good over evil. Perhaps this is how Muslim men act but it not how most men in the West act. But the West is civilized. Now if a non-Muslim portrayed Muslim men as being more inclined to rape women who don’t follow Islamic lunacy they would be accused of hate speech.
So what to do when a top Muslim cleric they says publicly something indicating that Muslim men can’t resist the urge to rape women who aren’t covered totally up?

Of course I’ve heard similar comments myself from fundamentalist Christians. Girls at the Christian school I attended would be hauled out of class and lined up in a hallway and told to kneel upright on the ground and then some school official would walk down the line with a ruler. A dress was not allowed to be more than two inches off the floor in an upright kneeling position. If it was 2 and one quarter inches off the floor she was sent home to change immediately and given demerits which, if accrued in sufficient numbers, would lead to his dismissal from the school.

The purpose of this dress code was to stop girls from “tempting” the boys. The meat can’t tempt the cats is how they saw it. But then their view was not about rape per se. They were horrified if a boy and girl merely held hands -- which was forbidden. Bob Jones University required male students and female students to remain more than 6 inches apart at any one time. No doubt any male who could boast of 8 inches of anatomy was highly in demand. But then I guess that doesn’t change even without the 6 inch rule.

8 Comments:

Blogger Publius II said...

Now it seems we are beginning to get to the source of your hatred of religion. It is a natural reaction, when one is subjected to such legalism for an extended period of time. When the grace of God is not practiced by those who claim to follow Him, it is a poor excuse indeed for a "Christian" institution.

"Perhaps this is how Muslim men act but it not how most men in the West act. But the West is civilized."

Oh really?? I can maybe at least understand how you can rationalize your disbelief in many of the things in Scripture, and even your disbelief in God himself is understandable to me, because you do not want to believe it. But are you so arrogant as to ignore the very condition of the world we live in, due solely to the depravity of mankind??

Look up the rape figures for the United States. Look up the murder rates. Look at the news. Every minute of every day some grisly event occurs at the hands of man. And yet we're civilized and nothing is wrong with man?

Though I do not believe covering a woman from head-to-toe is going to solve the problem, I think it is pretty self-apparent that something is deeply wrong with mankind.

Even if we only look inside ourselves, there is a disparity between what we believe to be morally right and the way we act 90% of the time. I do not think we can deny his observation that man (and woman for that matter) is helplessly lost to sin. It is his proposed solution to this problem (as well as the solution from Bob Jones U.) that I would agree is rather silly.

October 27, 2006

 
Blogger GodlessZone said...

I must give you credit Publius. You know more things that just aren't so than the average person. I hate what religion does. It is dangerous and destructive because it is fundamentally irrational. I don't believe in your divine fairy tale because it is irrational to do so. It is not that I don't "want" to believe. My beliefs are not determined by what I want to be true but what is true, to the best of my judgment.

But it is clear that you are a Calvinist. And your monstrous talk of the "depravity of mankind" is exactly the view I despise in this cleric and in Calvinism. I will look at the news and you know what? First, very few people every murder anyone --- very, very few. Very few rape anyone. Very, very few. And I can go to the lest religious Western countries and the rates are lower. If it is depravity that does this then why are crime rates higher in the Bible belt states? Why is the religious US far more crime prone than secular Europe?

It is assinine to refer to "every minute of every day some grisly event occurs at the hands of man" when you know there are over 5 billion people on the planet. With 5 billion people of course that will be the case. But the truth is that the overwhelming majority of them don't rape, don't rob and don't murder. The Calvinist is inherently a collectivist. They say all men are utterly depraved and born depraved. But most people, even among the unsaved -- I suspect more so among the unsaved -- are decent, good people. Now maybe you violate common decency and morality "90% of the time" (though I doubt it) but most people don't. You want to label all humans as evil because of the actions of minorities. That is a collectivist concept. Most people are good.

October 27, 2006

 
Blogger Publius II said...

First, very few people every murder anyone --- very, very few. Very few rape anyone.

"Very few" is a very relative term. I would contend that over 5 million reported cases of violent crime in the U.S. in 2004 (the last reported year on the FBI crime stats website), is "very many." Tell the over 200,000 women that were raped that year that there are "very few" rapes.

And you declined to make any comment on the third place I asked you to look -- within yourself.

As for your statistics on secular Europe vs. the religious U.S. in their crime rates, it doesn't really apply to the conversation while we're discussing the condition of mankind across the board, regardless of location or culture. In every culture in the world, you have the common denominator of people who know how they are supposed to act, and yet those same people choose not to act that way. Why?

You say I am speaking as a collectivist, and I say you have missed my point. I can certainly make collectivist arguments for my case, because mankind is all in the same boat with regards to our nature. However, I am pointing to each individual person in that collective. Just because not every person goes to the extent of a violent crime, and exteriorly we can label them "good and decent" (which again are relative terms), when we look deeper beyond the surface we see every man as selfish. How many times does a man have to walk past a homeless starving man without breaking stride, much less extending some sort of help, before he's no longer "decent and good?" What about lying for selfish reasons? How many times does one have to do that before we're no longer "decent and good?" And yet do we not believe that we should help our fellow humans (or at least be kind to them), and do we not believe that lying is generally wrong?

Individually, we all act selfishly. What percent of the time is irrelevant. The very fact that selfishness is our natural tendency seems to say something about the condition of mankind.

October 30, 2006

 
Blogger GodlessZone said...

I stand by what I said and think your comments are rubbish. Very, very people rape. That is a fact. In addition your numbers are false. I went to the FBI crime statistics for 2004 and they have the total number of rapes at below 100,000 while you claim it is more than twice that. They say that in 2004 it was 94,635 reported rapes. That is out oa almost 300,000,000 people. That means that out 100,000 people the number raped is about 32. Far below 1 percent. And rapists tend to be repeat offenders. So the numbers of rapists per 100,000 people is well below the number of victims per 100,000. When we take the number of rapes by repeat offenders we find that the percentage of men who rape is quite small. The percentage of women raped is small but higher because one rapists can have many victims. But the rape rate is well under what you claimed it was. And my use of the term "very, very few" is not relative it is based on percentages and percentages remain constant. That is why they are used.

People can act badly in all places. Religious nutters act badly more often. So religion is not the answer to crime.

You said "you declined to make any comment on the third place I asked you to look -- within yourself" I'm sorry but I don't know what you are talking about. You did not ask me to look within myself. Since I have never raped anyone, never attacked someone, never robbed someone, etc., what is your point?
If you want to peddle the garbage we are all evil take that rubbish and go somewhere else with it. We are not. Your Calvinist view of humankind is a sick one. It is the sort of hatred for humanity that is common among fundamentalists especially Calvinists.

You damn "selfishness" without defining it. That makes it impossible to respond to it. As I define selfishness it is not immoral or bad. It is the right of each person to live for his own sake. This is why I claim you Christianists are the soul brothers of the socialists. You damn man and demand he live for the sake of others. I don't. Now what kind of charity we engage in is something that has to be carefully considered. Maybe the homeless man you refer to uses his welfare to buy alcohol. Maybe every cent I give him goes for booze. In that case my generosity is destroying him. Charity foolishly given destroys the recipient while making the sanctimonious feel good about themselves. That is very selfish in the bad sense of the word. Charity can be lethal as anyone who has watched it corrupt people can attest. It can be destructive. So sometimes the best thing you can do that homeless man is do nothing until he is willing to change -- unless you think forcing him is the way to go.

I stand by my statement. Most people are good. Most people are willing to help others when they deserve it. Most people are not cruel. Most people are not mean. Religion can make them mean and make them cruel. But very, very few people actually go out and hurt others. Of course there is a more subtle pain inflicted on people and that is the kind that comes from the vile doctrines that tells each individual they are utterly evil. That is the doctrine you are peddling.

October 30, 2006

 
Blogger GodlessZone said...

I stand by what I said and think your comments are rubbish. Very, very people rape. That is a fact. In addition your numbers are false. I went to the FBI crime statistics for 2004 and they have the total number of rapes at below 100,000 while you claim it is more than twice that. They say that in 2004 it was 94,635 reported rapes. That is out oa almost 300,000,000 people. That means that out 100,000 people the number raped is about 32. Far below 1 percent. And rapists tend to be repeat offenders. So the numbers of rapists per 100,000 people is well below the number of victims per 100,000. When we take the number of rapes by repeat offenders we find that the percentage of men who rape is quite small. The percentage of women raped is small but higher because one rapists can have many victims. But the rape rate is well under what you claimed it was. And my use of the term "very, very few" is not relative it is based on percentages and percentages remain constant. That is why they are used. (See: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offenses_reported/violent_crime/forcible_rape.html)

People can act badly in all places. Religious nutters act badly more often. So religion is not the answer to crime.

You said "you declined to make any comment on the third place I asked you to look -- within yourself" I'm sorry but I don't know what you are talking about. You did not ask me to look within myself. Since I have never raped anyone, never attacked someone, never robbed someone, etc., what is your point?
If you want to peddle the garbage we are all evil take that rubbish and go somewhere else with it. We are not. Your Calvinist view of humankind is a sick one. It is the sort of hatred for humanity that is common among fundamentalists especially Calvinists.

You damn "selfishness" without defining it. That makes it impossible to respond to it. As I define selfishness it is not immoral or bad. It is the right of each person to live for his own sake. This is why I claim you Christianists are the soul brothers of the socialists. You damn man and demand he live for the sake of others. I don't. Now what kind of charity we engage in is something that has to be carefully considered. Maybe the homeless man you refer to uses his welfare to buy alcohol. Maybe every cent I give him goes for booze. In that case my generosity is destroying him. Charity foolishly given destroys the recipient while making the sanctimonious feel good about themselves. That is very selfish in the bad sense of the word. Charity can be lethal as anyone who has watched it corrupt people can attest. It can be destructive. So sometimes the best thing you can do that homeless man is do nothing until he is willing to change -- unless you think forcing him is the way to go.

I stand by my statement. Most people are good. Most people are willing to help others when they deserve it. Most people are not cruel. Most people are not mean. Religion can make them mean and make them cruel. But very, very few people actually go out and hurt others. Of course there is a more subtle pain inflicted on people and that is the kind that comes from the vile doctrines that tells each individual they are utterly evil. That is the doctrine you are peddling.

October 30, 2006

 
Blogger Publius II said...

The numbers I quoted were from the reports from the Justice Department. They can be found here: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/cvus/current/cv0402.pdf

I never said religion was the answer to crime, and in fact I would say that anyone making that claim has a severe misunderstanding of reality.

What we are discussing is whether or not mankind is basically good or basically enslaved to sin. We can look at it collectively or look at it from the individual standpoint. Either way, in my opinion, the answer is the same.

For the record, I'm not "peddling" anything. I'm simply presenting what I believe is the correct view of mankind and the world.

Do I honestly need to define selfishness? It is defined as "exclusive regard to one's own interest or happiness; that supreme self-love or self-preference which leads a person to direct his purposes to the advancement of his own interest, power, or happiness, without regarding those of others. Sir J. Mackintosh defines it as "a vice utterly at variance with the happiness of him who harbors it, and, as such, condemned by self-love."

Each man has the knowledge or the "conviction" if I may use that word, that the above discribed behavior is not the way we should live life. There is the self-apparent reality that happiness is found by acting in opposition to the above defined selfishness. How do you explain the fact that given all this, we still live the way we do?

Also, I said nothing of "welfare" toward the homeless man. I'm well aware of the horrible consequences of welfare. I simply said "kindness," as in, treating the man with the dignity of being human.

And for one who claims to have gone to seminary, you certainly like to misrepresent the message of the Gospel, which is not mean-ness, or cruel, but is essential grace, love and peace for the individual. What you say "religion" does to people I will not argue with, because in most cases, "religion" is used as a club wielded by the weak against his fellow man. This is not what I am about. My belief is in a God Who is There, who created the universe for His own purposes and extends mercy and grace to the individual, despite ourselves. That's it. I'm not into rules and guilt trips.

October 31, 2006

 
Blogger GodlessZone said...

It is your right to believe that man is evil, that an imaginary friend in the sky exits, etc. But as normal I would appreciate you using websites set up for that purpose to preach that nonsense. As I have said to Christians, who apparently can't leave those who disagree with them alone, is that they not use this site to preach their doctrines.

The one page you send through for your crime states is incomplete. It doesn't list the time period or what is being measured. The numbers I looked up were the numbers of rapes per year. But in fact your statistic was not for rape but for rape and and "sexual assaults" which includes the threat of rape. The actual rape figure is right before your eyes and it was 101,000. Which is not far off the 95,000 I quoted from another Department of Justice source. But even if it were were 200,000 (which it is not) this is not an indication that most people are evil and sinful. The Calvinist doctrine si monstrous to the core.

Now the definition of selfish you offer is not worth much since absolutely no one except perhaps some extreme pscyhopaths have zero regard for others. Though I must admit I've run into many Calvinist who have no regard for others. Even someone as evil as Hitler had strong regards for some others. His grief at the death of his mother was considerable. The only person I've ever met who had no regard for others is a miserable, drunker narcissist. His utter lack of regard for others brought him nothing of substance. Yet in all my life he is the only person I've met with such total regard for others.

Most people live pretty decent lives unless they get too religious and then won't leave others alone. Then they become very unpleasant indeed. The extreme you describe is unrealistic and anyone who tries to live the opposite, or preaches the total opposite, is equally evil. To teach men that they must have no regard for self is absurd and the foundation for most dictatorships.

I do believe that the meaness of Christians in implicit in their theology which preaches they are the only true believers, the one true choosen people of god, etc. That sort of belief leads to isolation and creating an "other" and when people make "an other" who is evil they soon are ready to do very nasty things to them. This is why religion everywhere leds to inquisitions, war, etc.

October 31, 2006

 
Blogger Publius II said...

You propogate your opinions via this website, and have graciously left the comment feature active. This would indicate that your ideas are open for discussion and/or criticism. I am not "preaching doctrine" as you say, but simply pointing out where your ideas are based solely on your perceptions, and not necessarily fact.

Concerning selfishness, I'm not saying that man acts in a selfish manner 100% of the time. Let me ask a question: If hypothetically, someone were to act selfishly 100%, would you say that person is evil?

October 31, 2006

 

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